Some people say that your Western chart is more earthy and represents your personality and your Vedic chart is more spiritual and represents your soul. I have great confidence in the result of his work on my chart as it speaks to the events in my life and who I am. Up until the last century or so, before the discoveries of Uranus, Neptune, Pluto and Chiron, the classical rulerships of the signs were used in both systems. From the tropical perspective, this could be done by simply considering which stars are present in each tropical sign, and forming an image with the stars that matches the nature of the planet ruling that sign. I. learned how the interactions between the various planets of my natal chart worked together, showing areas that might show ease and others that might be more problematic. By contrast, sidereal astrology uses a sidereal zodiac whose initial point is defined relative to the fixed stars. From that point of view, the stars are fixed while tropical moves. Astrologer:. chart. More importantly, Patrick was fun, personable, and very good at explaining the complicated aspects in a way that made sense. The only way these could logically be integrated with the sidereal zodiac is if sidereal Gemini, Virgo, Sagittarius and Pisces assumed more cardinal characteristics since that is where the Sun is at the beginning of the seasons sidereally. I too am learning/studying for about 6 years now. However, on longer time scales, the tropical zodiac is stable and its the constellations which vary wildly, destabilizing the sidereal zodiac. Patrick is not just skilled at chart interpretation; he thinks like a scientist, continually working out techniques that emerged from recent translations, which, in my opinion, always contain an interpretive dimension, particularly 2,000 years beyond the writing of the text and the culture within which the text was produced. I guess my Tropical Sun Sign (Libra) is somewhat accurate, but it also says that I'm charismatic, outgoing, extroverted, and flirty, which is far from the truth. An easy way to do this in your head, if the planet's degrees are less than 23 degrees in any given sign, is to add 7 degrees and go back a sign. NDB: I fully agree. This correlates with the major seasonal changes on Earth. I started with Vedic astrology in the mid 90s. In your article you say Sidereal moves??? For example, if the Ascendant is 4 degrees Leo, then the 1st house begins at 0 degrees Leo, the 2nd house is calculated as 0 degrees Virgo, the 3rd, 0 degrees Libra, and . Written by: Morningbird & MS Team. In Sidereal astrology,Venus is in Leo here. He is, of course, now in Sidereal Leo. Life on the ship would unfold according to a schedule or template, of waking, working, playing, eating, resting, being born, living and dying. However, even thousands of years into the future, the tropical zodiac will remain tied to the Earths relationship to the Sun. Tropical is more akin to a movable do, in that the order stays the same even though the starting point can change. Heres a framework to be my base with my tropical chart, and heres the variances that may make my life, experiences, lessons, etc. Planetary rulerships belong to the tropical zodiac. Nobody uses the sidereal astrology in Europe or America, except for a few researchers on the subject. Yet in my Draconic natal chart, Virgo cusps my . When this person is an astrologer, schooled by skilled astrologers such as Chris Brennan and Nick Dagan Best, I feel very fortunate to have happened upon him. Birth city: ( Enter coordinates manually ) But its an illusion. Thanks a lot for your clarification. He also helped me realize how my passions and interests appear in my chart, and gave me advice on how to anticipate incorporating passion/purpose and find a career. Since this is subjective, there are many different forms of sidereal. Patrick is an astute practitioner, with a great deal of wisdom, maturity, insight and great kindness. I highly recommend Patrick. I just recently started studying my sidereal chart after strongly identifying with my tropical for most of my (young) life. Both forms of astrology contain signs named after constellations. I am not well versed with Indian Astrology as I am with Tropical Astrology. Notify me of follow-up comments by email. This never changes, except that due to axial precession, each equinox and solstice appears to shift backward 1 degree every 72 years, relative to the stars. In the final analysis I think that the accuracy of any system, depends more on the clarity of intuion of the astrologer than on the system itself. Difference Between Tropical and Sidereal Zodiac. Neither would be wrong because its true that we are in a ship in the ocean and that there is an ocean with a ship in it. So how do we reconcile this? The actual point in space that is Leo 22 in 1951 in the tropical zodiac will be Leo 23 in the tropical Zodiac in 2023. Then well really have a lot of explaining to do with regards to the two systems because theyll be exactly opposite one another!! I am new to astrology and the accuracy of what he was able to predict about me and events in my past was astounding. When taken together over a period of 5 million years (a cosmic blip) it looks completely chaotic, more like an aquarium. Great article! Highly, highly recommended! Historically, its generally agreed, that the two zodiacs were in alignment with one another about the year 285 A.D. with both sidereal and tropical ephemeris listing the passage of the Sun into Aries at the Spring equinox. Fantastic reading. . In fact, in my experience thats always been the case when I look at both the Vedic and Western charts of a particular person. The twelfth year, like Pisces, has qualities of dissolution and death before the rebirth again with the next Jupiter return. The tropical zodiac is entirely sun-based and the signs are set upon the ecliptic. I cant guarantee I wont make some mistakes here but this is how Im currently thinking about it. The difference between the two zodiacs, therefore, is not so much the content of the zodiac but in the calculation of the timing for the starting point of the 1st degree of Aries. Each year is like one sign of the zodiac. Maria Thun who was an authority on biodynamics was using this Sidereal zodiac I have also mentioned him to my friends who are interested in Astrology. And since the Sidereal zodiac more closely follows the movement of the stars which, as youve pointed out, will not even hold their constellations in the long run, that it would make more sense to alter the Sidereal. I love this explanation of the, sidereal vs tropical debate. sec. Western Astrology uses the tropical zodiac, whereas Vedic astrology uses the sidereal zodiac. Here's a link to calculate your Tropical Astrology Chart, and here's a link to calculate your Sidereal Astrology Chart. This is not to confuse the sidereal zodiac with the constellational zodiac, its a rough approximation of the constellations. I had a reading yesterday with Patrick, and it was one of the most helpful, thorough and on-target readings of my life. Overall, it felt like a flimsy reading. If you are a Tropical Virgo, you are likely to be a Sidereal Leo. Pluto in Leo represents those haughty and piously fraudulent attitudes which wonder why the peasants don't eat cake when there is a shortage of bread." (Firebrace, Spica, April, 1966.) As an illustration, the pattern of 12 signs can be visually likened to a clock. He provided so much information and I feel not only INCREDIBLY pleased with my reading, but that I sincerely have been equipped with so much more knowledge about astrology, my own life and what to expect in the upcoming years. well, here are two fates presented before you; now you get to exercise your free will. This is really just a different spin on the all-time least convincing justification in astrology It works for me, even though very few astrologers are actively using both zodiacs. i just had my chart rectified by Patrick. The easiest way is to just roll back to charting how the cosmos was charted by the ancients and go that route. For me? But with a name like bigfatastro, I just had to check it out. Also with Pisces, the word soma , i believe also means how we feel. Time (local time) h min. For the same reason, Ayanamsha can be simply called the difference of degree between tropical and sidereal planetary positions, whereas the sidereal is true and shows actual planetary degrees. In order to honor their new paths, we need to set the terms of divorce, including name changes, division of assets and a custody agreement. The tension between diurnal motion and zodiacal motion provides a compelling astronomical basis for the meanings of houses, and suggests that the friction between them is generative rather than destructive. We may have to revisit our view of constellations period. The ayanamsha will be 180 degrees 0 minutes!! The period shifted, because tropical sun signs follow the equinoxes, which has been shifted for about 24 days because of the precession. This makes accurate measurements meaningless and arbitrary, because meaning can be derived from any chart regardless of if its the right one or not, as long as its the one you saw in that moment. . Easy solution that works great. Predictive astrologers too. Whos fixed now, bitch?!? So why two zodiacs anyway? Another response is to render the question irrelevant by foregoing the cultural constructs of zodiacs altogether, focusing instead just on planetary geometry. At the Summer Solstice, the Sun moves into Cancer; the Autumn Equinox begins the Sun's movement into . If we think the astrological phenomenon is real and has at least some exoteric correlations, then we have to be able to account for its operation in other times. In other words, where the Sun actually is at the time of the Spring equinox moves backward through the zodiac. I definitely look forward to further consultations as I dig deeper into my astrological studies. 6 Tropical Virgo will be impeccably prepared anytime it has to face the outside world, under the "rule" of curious Mercury. His reading for me was profound and answered many questions I had about trends. The sun takes longer than 30 days to travel through the constellation of Virgothe largest constellation of the zodiacbut only a . Thank you Patrick. We need a good answer to this question. Eventually their resistances are broken down and theyre able to contain a broader, more all encompassing viewpoint. They have the same names as sidereal signs because they used to coincide, but to be properly distinguished they should have different names. and motifs in my life. Ptolemy came rather late to the history of astrology when he decided that Tropical seasonal astrology was a reasonable way to resolve the precessional inaccuracy that had accumulated. Roughly 2000 years ago, tropical Aries aligned with sidereal Aries, and while ancient astrologers were to some degree aware of precession, they didnt concern themselves with their differences since they were still small in their own time. ( unknown time ) Birth city: ( Enter coordinates manually ) Aries begins where it is visible. This reminds me in some ways of the debate in music over fixed do and movable do. Table of Contents show. About 5 years ago I switched to Tropical Vedic Astrology. This symbolism relates most directly to sidereal Cancer (tropical Leo) and sidereal Leo (tropical Virgo). I dont agree with you on everything for instance I think if were going to be renaming signs (which, lets be honest, I doubt many will be convinced to do) that the Tropical zodiac should keep the names and symbols since it is supposed to be the unchanging one. In the same way that astronomers decide the names of new planets and how meteorologists decide the names of new hurricanes, astrologers could decide on the new cultural image reflected in those stars. How do you think mundane studies of planetary cycles through history works if not linking the right celestial event with the right earthly event? Perhaps tropical Leo in previous eras was a more gentle solar sign, perhaps in another era it will be seen as a more domineering and intimidating solar sign. But if you reference the GIF above, 200,000 years was enough time for Leo to transform from a regal lion into a demented trapezoidal giraffe. If it's Cancer 28 in the sidereal zodiac in 1951, it will still be Cancer 28 in 2023. Then again, im just a hobbyist so what do I know? 27/28 Lunar Mansions. Others try to sidestep this entire question by basically giving up on the entire idea that astrology has objective correlations, chalking astrology up to being purely divinatory. Whats the point of getting accurate birth times then? Yknow, Zuthuusu from 7th century BCE Babylon didnt stay up all hours of the night on top of a ziggurat studiously etching the movements of planets onto cuneiform tablets, just so he could do it wrong and his astrological interpretation would still be a pArtIciPatorY mOmeNt. Tropical date. 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